Man Killed In Lakewood Stabbing

Eggs-n-Toast May 30, 2012 at 12:25 am

And Ken, when thousands and thousands of immigrants landed on Ellis Island, they were usually processed through within 24 hours. Thousands at a time. The only people they turned away were people with criminal records (if they could even know that), people that lacked even the minimum paperwork like a birth certificate or paper of origin, or they were obviously sick with some sort of communicable disease.
I think you need to check out a few history books, or immigration circa 1900's articles. The boat trip from Europe took a whole lot longer than it took to get the immigration stamp on their papers.

Ken May 30, 2012 at 02:14 am

@ EggsnToast, First of all I meant to say all immigrants AREN'T Illegals. Many came hear legally. My family did come to this country in the early 1900's and it was no easy task like you think to come hear. They needed to be healthy, have a sponsor, a trade , learn to assimilate, which includes knowing out language amongst other things. As far as I am concerned illegal aliens are just that crimminals, I am tired of the term undocumented immigrants, just a bleeding heart liberal term. Let me ask you how many illegals do you let live with you? How amny of them do you give jobs to? How many of them are your neighbors? Since you seem so concerned with them I think you should let them live with you, you should give them a job, you should pay their bills and you should live amongst them.

Ken May 30, 2012 at 02:18 am

@ onthecuff..you are so right. It seems that people today forget that when our ancestors came here, they came here legally. Did everything they were supposed to before that got here and did what they were supposed to once tey arrived. They learned to assimilate with people from this country and did not expect people to assimilate to their ways. they did not have their hand outs for handouts. They were the true hard workers. They helped build this country, not tear it down.

Ken May 30, 2012 at 02:21 am

I am not from Chinese ancstry, but I know it was no cake walk for my family to come here in the early 1900s. Many people were not allowed here and many were turned away. Plus once they were allowed in here they were hard workers and did everything to fit in. Not like now when the illegals come in and expect us to cater to them. Plus I do not know about the rest of you, but my ancetors never looked for handouts, like the illegals do now. Unfortunately EggsnToast never did respond when I mentioned how many illegals have numerous false IDs which help them get handouts. Guess she did not want to comment on that since she knows it is true and a big problem.

Eggs-n-Toast May 30, 2012 at 02:59 am

Ummm No, Ken, I didn't respond to that particular part of your comment because I had already posted plenty in response to other points, and there was plenty that YOU didn't respond to either.
But Ok, let's talk; So sometimes, a small percentage of that small percentage of illegal aliens uses fake documentation to get what? handouts? By that I guess you mean things like welfare, etc? Well, I know what is required to get welfare and food stamps and other "handouts"... you need social security cards *and* birth certificates for EVERYONE in the family - young or old. You need marriage certificates, proof of address, a bank account, proof of work or proof you are actively looking for work. You really think it's so easy for some Mexican guy to sneak across the border, with a only few bucks in his pocket, -- oh, let's not forget the wife and kids he's draggin' along, because you don't GET welfare or food stamps without wife and kids -- to find someone on this side to provide him with ALL those documents for his family, (for free?) JUST so he can collect handouts? Really? And where does he pick up his check without a mailing address? How does he open a bank account without a drivers license, social security card and proof of residency? No bank account, no food stamp card, and no welfare direct deposit either. Yeah, its a big giant conspiracy. THOUSANDS of illegals all flocking here to collect their 200 a month in food stamps. Uh-huh. Ok. You win.

Eggs-n-Toast May 30, 2012 at 03:26 am

Ken, here's more for You:
Both sets of my grandparents came into this country via Ellis Island, in the early 1900s. Only one set were actually married already when they arrived here. It was hard. They were all under-educated, poor and did not speak much English at all. But they worked whenever and wherever they could find work. Eventually the children that came along learned English first from friends and neighbors, then from school- and taught the older people at home English. Kids also worked and contributed to the family. The depression came along and things were even harder. But one thing ALL immigrants had, was at least a CHANCE to work hard, and strive for a better life for themselves and their kids. There was plenty of prejudice and bigotry towards all the immigrant groups that came, whether Italian, Irish, Polish, German, or Jewish. But they persevered. You keep saying now a days immigrants just want hand outs .... well, if we would allow immigrants to come in, get documented, just as we did back then, what makes you think they wouldn't try to work, and 'make it' and to fit in? Why can't they even get the CHANCE to try - like our grandparents or great-grandparents did? Because (generally) our prejudiced attitude today is much much worse than any bigot or hater back then, that's why. We seem to believe we can slam the gate on everyone else now. I don't think that's right. And I never will. We need a fair and REASONABLE system for immigration.

Ken May 30, 2012 at 04:50 am

All my grandparents came here along with all their parents (my great grandparents) in the early 1900s as well. Yes it was not easy for them, but the differnce was they came here legally. Again I have no problem with people coming here legally. Do it the proper way and I have no problem. But do not come here first illegally and than try to stay. Start the legal way before you come here. I am speaking from all countries whether South America, Central America, Europe , etc. But we also have to have a limit on how many come here. We only have so many jobs and so much resources. Look how many Americans can not find jobs, are losing their houses, etc.

Diogenes May 30, 2012 at 09:58 pm

Onthecuff--you said previously that today's street gangs are worse than the Westies and the Mafia, because the Mafia was "organized' crime. So that would mean, by your logic, that the "organized" Mafia's killings of other families' soldiers and capos, their control of prostitution, gambling, protection rackets and buying of law enforcement and judges is somehow better than what happens with today's street gangs? As my Irish grandmother used to say, "That's a lot of hooey!"

Diogenes May 30, 2012 at 10:22 pm

Ken, I can trace some of my family in this country back to the 1790's so of course the rest of you are all newbies to my family!! But in a more serious note, Ken, your arguments rely heavily on stereotypes, prejudices and misinformation. I'm with Eggs-n-Toast, who speaks from historical and demographic facts. Ken, your argument seems to be based on talking points derived from certain popular but disreputable propagandistic radio and television shows that play fast and loose with the facts. The current hysteria against immigrants is part of a cyclic phenomenon in our country's history (I know, because I have an advanced degree in that field). Go check out in your history book or Wiki abut the struggles of the Irish Catholics in Philadelphia and and New York City in the 1840's against the political party called the "Know-Nothings"; and the riots, the Catholic church and convent arsons and the killings that went on in Phila. in those years. (Of course, since they chose to mess with the Irish, the Know-Nothings had their comeuppance!) And Ken, some of your arguments are personal, e.g. challenging Eggs-n-toast to host immigrants in his home. Here's a personal challenge for you: go to Atlantic County and pick blueberries for a hot July week or two, and tell me how these migrant/immigrants are lazy. I post this with all due respect, that you will see perhaps a little glimmer of the other side of the immigration argument. Pax tecum!

Diogenes May 30, 2012 at 10:29 pm

Oh, this sounds so much like the immigration law quotas established in the early 1900's to keep "undesirable" immigrants from landing on our shores. Usually the ones who used a lot of garlic in their cuisine, and who spoke languages that were not of Anglo Saxon origin.

Diogenes May 30, 2012 at 10:33 pm

Yes, Ken, I can see thousands of Americans who are lined up to pick blueberries and tomatoes in the fields of Cumberland, Gloucester and Atlantic Counties,. and who are pounding on the doors of landscaping contractor businesses, clamoring to work in the hot sun of the Jersey summer.

We Own The Night May 30, 2012 at 10:35 pm

Ken, They are illegal in a civil manor, Not criminal... FYI!

Ken May 30, 2012 at 10:45 pm

Well obviously you must be correct in everything you stated since you have an advance degree.....LOL. I may now have your degree that you are so impressed with. But I do know my families history and how they came here and what they needed to do to come here LEGALLY. I also know people in different businesses who deal with the illegals and they tell me how they will have numerous fake social security numbers and other fake IDs. If one does not work they will just come back the next day with another fake ID. They have also told me how the illeglas are not the hard workier that liberals want everyone to believe. I guess you must just like having your country taken over by a group of people who do not even follow the laws of this country. I personally think you need a new degree in common sense.

We Own The Night May 30, 2012 at 11:23 pm

Organized crime is organized crime. Doesn't matter if it's a member of MS13, Bloods or the Gambino's. They're all a bunch of low lifes and losers. Paul Castalono and John Ghotti wore suits and liked to pretend to be businessmen when in fact they were nothing but trash.

We Own The Night May 30, 2012 at 11:34 pm

Ken, you seem to know it all.. They are illegal because it is a civil issue not criminal. Don't quit you're day job and stop trying to school us with the laws. An attorney you're NOT! You cite Wikipedia now theres a great source of information.

We Own The Night May 30, 2012 at 11:40 pm

We should round up all the illegals and lawyers and ship them off to the same place. Nothing but a bunch of blood suckers however you look at it!

onthecuff May 31, 2012 at 12:26 pm

Diogenes: I think what I meant to say was... back in the day when our ancestors came here to America they came with something other then with their hands out. My reference regarding "organized crime" and the street gangs, is if the Mafia took ya out, they had good cause to do so... NOT That it makes it right. BUT with these gangs today, they just go into barber shops and kill people for the joy of it. With organized crime, if you were killed, there was a reasoning behind it. Neither group killed just for the sack of killing..... Neither one is correct but.... gangs are just out of control....

onthecuff May 31, 2012 at 12:29 pm

YES and I spelt sake wrong ... I spelt it sack....LOL, sorry...

onthecuff May 31, 2012 at 12:37 pm

I think that is amazing that you can trace your family roots back to this country since 1790. I am 2nd Generation from Italy. I know where my roots are from, but have a very vague idea about how my family came to America and settled here. I have looked into Ellis Island but the information there is vague as well and it's hard to pin point exactly when the family arrived. Maybe someday I will be able to dig up more history and find out more... That's amazing that you can trace back that far.... I'm actually jealous... :-)

Diogenes May 31, 2012 at 01:04 pm

Ken, you are making my point and Eggs-n-toast's People in previous generations came to this country 'legally", as you say, but there were virtually no requirements for entry other than getting off the boat. Our immigration laws are a dysfunctional maze that is difficult to navigate. Perhaps that is why these people try using fake SS numbers, etc. to get work. And if they are trying to get work, are they lazy? And if they work, aren't they paying taxes? While you may have anecdotal, perhaps accurate, accounts of these workers not living up to your expectations of hard work, have you taken a tour of farm fields on the back roads of South Jersey in the summer, or suburban lawns being tended to by the Mexicans employed by local landscapers? Remember the "No Irish need apply" signs in businesses? They were a fact of life in the 1800's. And Ken, when you try categorize others by calling them "liberals", you seem to believe that you can predict what they think. It really relieves you of the burden of rational discussion of an issue. Most Americans are somewhere in the middle. And isn't it presumptious to assume that I "must like having your (my) country taken over by a group of people who don't even follow the laws of this country"? I thought the only way to take over this country was through free and democratic elections. You also get personal--implying that a degree gives someone an attitude of superiority. Really it only teaches one to think straight and recognize facts.

Common Sense in Silverton May 31, 2012 at 01:17 pm

I'm not getting involved in the larger, overarching argument we've got going on here, but I'm almost 100% positive that you are wrong about this, or at least wording it very poorly. Being here and undocumented or being here after your legal papers expired is against the law, which makes it criminal. They are called "illegal" because it is against the law; again, criminal.
FYI.

Diogenes May 31, 2012 at 01:19 pm

Onthecuff--Please don't worry about mispellings--our fingers do tricky things and everyone understands that typos are inevitable! I was only trying to point out that crime is crime, but I agree with you that the random violence of gangs is inexcusable and must be stopped. I feel very sorry for Lakewood losing a young police officer last year (date-?) because of a gang member-executioner. No mercy should be shown to that criminal.

Diogenes May 31, 2012 at 01:24 pm

CS in Silverton, in all seriousness I think we need an attorney/Patch poster to clarify whether offenses against immigration regulations are considered criminal offenses. It would help the discussion!

We Own The Night May 31, 2012 at 01:28 pm

If they forge paperwork to enter the country it is criminal. Otherwise it is a civil manner which is why the police are very limited with what they can do.

Mattie May 31, 2012 at 01:42 pm

Common Sense in Silverton,
Jaywalking is illegal too -- Littering is also illegal -- you can be fined and ticketed. But do you consider a jaywalker or litterbug a "criminal"? No? Well, why not - they broke a 'law'.... I think many here are trying to make the point that much like drug possession laws; it's the (illegal alien) law itself that makes "criminals" out of people, not any sort of actual harmful or dangerous activity toward anyone else. I have to agree with others that we need reasonable and viable immigration procedures to help people become legal immigrants and not criminals for no other reason than lack of paperwork - paperwork that we make nearly impossible to get.

Common Sense in Silverton May 31, 2012 at 05:35 pm

"Common Sense in Silverton,
Jaywalking is illegal too -- Littering is also illegal -- you can be fined and ticketed. But do you consider a jaywalker or litterbug a "criminal"? No?" Yes? It's illegal isn't it? That makes it criminal. I'm not sure what your point was, but it's wrong.

Common Sense in Silverton May 31, 2012 at 05:38 pm

Ok, I'll have to take your word for it then because I don't know too much about that. I'll admit I was a tad snarky with my initial response.
But jaywalkers and litterbugs are still criminals, Mattie. Doesn't mean they're bad people. Just criminals.

Mattie May 31, 2012 at 06:01 pm

Common Sense, so by your logic then, it would also be correct to say "Criminals are Good People" - right? Because after all, the word "criminal" has no other meaning than one who broke Any law, no matter how insignificant.
Ok. Fine, then the word "criminal" becomes nearly meaningless. May as well stop defining illegals with that word. and on the other hand that makes us all criminals, every single one of us that has gotten a parking ticket, littered, stayed in a park after dusk, caught and kept a fish 1/8 inch short of the limit, didn't stop at a yellow light even though we could have, etc etc etc. Come on, really? You really want to go that way on this?

Common Sense in Silverton May 31, 2012 at 08:13 pm

What are we going all the way with? Your point is these are such minor crimes that the people who commit them aren't criminals. They ARE criminals; they commited a crime, that makes them criminals. I'm not separating "little" crimes (jaywalking, littering) from "big" crimes (murder, arson). I'm defining people who commit crimes as criminals.
I'm also not making any statements as to whether they're good or bad people, which is why I included in my last post that I'm not saying they're bad. Your whole red herring argument is that I'm trying to make them out to be BAD simply because they're criminals. I'm staying neutral in the good vs. bad discussion. I'm simply generalizing the obvious and irrefutable; people who commit crimes are criminals. You came in and attempted to make it bad people vs. good people. If you're going to use logic, then get it correct. Saying "But jaywalkers and litterbugs are still criminals, Mattie. Doesn't mean they're bad people. Just criminals." does not mean that they are good people, either.

Mattie May 31, 2012 at 10:11 pm

CSiS;
Ah, out comes The Word Play argument. You're pretty good at it; I might even say you're *almost* as good at it as I am; even though I don't resort to that tactic very often. So, If you want to ignore the most overwhelmingly common usage/meaning for the word "criminal" - and play around with the literal definition while applying it to the topic at hand (Illegal aliens) -- Fine, I get it. But yeah, I'm done playing on this one. You *almost* sucked me in, though. Point for you. :-)